A question for my more knowledgeable friends

[eveglass]

Consider a bard from a culture with an oral tradition (medieval, Norse, Celtic, whatever). How much material, either measured in lines or duration, do you think this person would have known?

Just curious.

Comments

It's like asking how many songs do you know!

[ryss-rhiannon.livejournal.com]

I would logicaly guess all of it for what ever reigion he/she were learning from. If it were a traveling bard (eg) then I would guess a few choice tales or songs from each location visited.

But that's just a guess I doubt there can be a number placed on the wealth in the human brain.

Re: It's like asking how many songs do you know!

[eveglass.livejournal.com]

The reason I ask is because, as a bard for the SCA, I have some sense of what I've managed to learn in 4 or so years of just fooling around with it, and I'm wondering how much someone who 1) did this professionally, and 2) didn't have access to any writing materials, might reasonably have been expected to know.

Christian scholars in the middle ages, for example, were probably expected to know the entire Bible by heart, along with writings of prominent church fathers. Though that's a phenomenal amount of memorization by today's standards, I suspect it was par for the course back then.

Re: It's like asking how many songs do you know!

[ryss-rhiannon.livejournal.com]

Like the 16th and 17th c. Irish bards. Only they would have been learning since a very early age, say 5 or 6. I'd guess that the rate would have been one a month at the beginning then increased as the skill increased. But those are people who dedicated their life to bardic tradition.

Still an interesting question.

Re: It's like asking how many songs do you know!

[eveglass.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much exactly what I'm asking: for people who have dedicated their lives to bardic, but who don't have written materials to reference, how much would they have known?

I find it a fascinating question, as someone who only dabbles.

sorry if I'm babbling, but you bring up such GOOD questions...

[nearlyvalkyrie.livejournal.com]

GREAT question.

I don't know if it helps as a benchmark, but I know of a wonderful ceremony by the members of the Delaware Nation, where their history-keepers annually recite the Walum Olum - their spiritual and tribal history going back to creation. It takes at least a day, possibly two, with participants trading off. I understand there's some question of it's authenitcity, but for recitation of a culture's oral history, it's the only one I know. Most of the teaching-of-the-young-ones is framed in stories, like Aesop's fables. So maybe the quantity of material that person would know would be the equivalent of a substantial book of Aesop's fables, plus two days? Can an Aesop be a unit of measurement?

Going another direction, someone at Pennsic (?Garraed) talked about the bardic colleges and Brehon law, and it sounded like the different levels matched 1, 4 and 10 years of schooling. So how much material can be covered in one unit of CEU credit, times two semesters times a full time schedule?

Innnnnnnnteresting to think about.

[eveglass.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I'm hoping Fiana (who reads my LJ) might be able to shed some light on the topic.

Measuring repertoire in days is an interesting idea.

I started thinking about this because I'm playing a bardic character in an RPG and wondering how much she might reasonably be expected to know. Just for myself, playing around and only memorizing those pieces I think are nifty, I've got at least 50 songs and poems on the tip of my tongue, ready to perform without a book. At least. Probably more if I thought about it.

I doubt I'm up in the "days" category yet, but I can certainly go for a few hours without repeating myself and never picking up a book. (Though I might need my "cheat sheet" of song / poem titles to prompt me.)

Also, I wonder how long it might take a skald/bard/whatever to memorize a new piece. For myself, if I've got lyrics in front of me and have a recording of the song, I can probably memorize a standard-length song (ie: 3-6 verses plus chorus) to about 90% ready in about 30-45 minutes. I wonder how long it takes other people.

[sylke.livejournal.com]

Hm, handing me a song, yeah, I could probably get a normal-ish song (for example, not in French, which I can pronounce but only vaguely understand and am nowhere near fluency) to 90% performable in 45 minutes. However, I'm going to need to practice it a few times a day for the next few days for it to stick, so I don't consider it "memorized" until I've cemented it to long-term memory with multiple run-throughs spaced by a matter of days.

Oh, good examples. I can usually teach "Warrior's Wierd" (6 verses, no chorus) in under an hour, probably 30-45 minutes since the verses are short, and Born on the Listfield (uh, 5 verses? And a changing chorus) can also be done in under an hour pretty easily, but is also usually requested by folks who are already somewhat familiar with the song. So I'd say you're on the faster side but it's not unreasonable to expect a song to be memorized in under an hour.

[eveglass.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. Though I said I can get something to 90% performable in somewhat under an hour, that last 10% is make-or-break. It's the difference between remembering all the words and stumbling on the hard parts. To get something to the point where I'd be *willing* to perform it would probably be at least several days (and many repetitions) after I'd got it to 90%.

Incidentally, I've never actually learned "Born on the Listfield." I probably should at some point.

[sileas-1.livejournal.com]

When I studied bardic poetry in university we were taught that some of the "file" (bards) would be able to recite poetry of well over a hundred four line stanzas. There were several types of poetry forms and the celtic bards were very meticulous about form and function. In addition, the better poets would have known and/or constructed hundreds of poems. There is a book currently in print that can provide much more information on the celtic poetry tradition (most of the ones I studied from are no longer in print). Anyway the book is by Patrick K. Ford and is entitled "The Celtic Poets: Songs and Tales from early Ireland and Wales".
There are university degrees offered at Harvard University and St. Francis Xavier University in Celtic Studies and bardic poetry makes up a large portion of the courses. Hope this helps

[eveglass.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info.

The "well over a hundred four-line stanzas" doesn't surprise me at all. I wrote and memorized a 150-line poem in slightly under a week. Assuming I could keep that rate up for extended periods of time (doubtful, but possible if it was my full-time job), I could memorize nearly 2,000 4-line stanzas in a year.

As a comparison, Beowulf is 3182 lines long. If I could keep up my 150-lines a week rate, I could theoretically have it memorized in under half a year. (Of course, it would take about two and a half hour to recite it, but what else are you going to do on cold Medieval nights in the middle of nowhere?)

Just thinking out loud...